That Is Not Kind of Country Georgians Want to Live In - Interview With the US Ambassador

- Georgia did not join the sanctions imposed on Russia due to the war in Ukraine. The head of the government said that it would harm "national interests" and in case of sanctions against Russia, the money coming into Georgia would be "deprived of the people". A few days ago, the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Russia, Sergey Lavrov, publicly praised the Georgian government for this "courage". In 2022, Georgia's economic dependence on Russia increased unprecedentedly, which is not only an economic issue. How does the Western partner meet these important challenges for the country's security and economy?

- First, let me tell you how happy I am to be back in Gurjaani and to be on your channel to have a chance to talk about some of these very important issues. Obviously, this is a challenging time for the region, for the world, for Europe and that is when I think the long partnership, strong partnership the United States have had over the past thirty years and even longer than that. It really shows a difference, makes a difference here. We have done so much together in time to make Georgia more secure, more stable, more prosperous and of course more democratic as well. For the US, we strongly believe that Georgia’s democracy is going to be its best defense, because this is what people of Georgia want.

Georgia’s history with Russia is full of betrayals and broken promises, attacks on language, attacks on religion, attacks on your culture. This is the history that Georgians know very well. And I think this is how they regard promises or offers from people like Lavrov or Putin, or Russians.

What US wants to continue to do with Georgia is defend the sovereignty and territorial integrity that is at the core of our relationship, the security of Georgia. Not just territorial integrity though, also the culture that has made Georgia so unique.

Despite centuries of Russian attacks and attempts to eliminate your language and your church and your culture, Georgia still stands strong. And I think that is real testimony, to how firmly committed Georgia is to maintaining its unique identity. That’s also why Georgia has been oriented to Europe for centuries. That shared vision of freedom, shared commitment to the independence and sovereignty and territorial integrity. This is what Georgia binds to Europe, to US. And we want to continue to support Georgia in achieving that goal of Euro Atlantic future.

- Two months after the start of the war in Ukraine, the Georgian government handed over 105,000 hectares of forest in the Racha-Lechkhumi and Kvemo Svaneti regions to businessman Davit Khidasheli, who is a business partner of the sanctioned Russian oligarch, Vladimir Yevtushenkov. The territory given to Khidasheli is extremely close to the Georgian territories occupied by Russia and was given for a period of 49 years under the condition of doing business there. This is an example of another interest of Russia in Georgia. Do you follow such cases in our country?

- We are not involved in that particular case. Obviously, something like that is concerning and in Georgia, there are people who do follow that to keep the public informed. It’s a very important role both of the media and some civil society organizations to help the public be aware of transactions like that that are important to Georgia and should be done in a transparent fashion.

I think that Georgian’s experience with Russia is a history of being very careful and understanding that many things are said and very few pledges are fulfilled. Russian occupation of 20 percent of your territory is constant reminder that Russia is not to be trusted.

They have not fulfilled obligations under the 2008 treaty, just as they failed to fulfill many other pledges over the centuries. What is very important is to continue to support Georgia’s sovereignty and its territorial integrity and to peacefully restore that territorial integrity. Through the international forum that exists for that, such as international discussions.

- You mentioned the importance of informing the public, which was a key issue in the forest transfer case. We have been trying to get some documents, but unfortunately the government does not want to make all of them public so far. Getting public information in Georgia has become very difficult in recent years. This applies to obtaining public information from both local and central government bodies. Last year, only our organization had to use about 80 administrative complaints and submit 13 lawsuits to the court. The court, with the exception of rare judges, will not hear these lawsuits for months or years. This is an obstacle for the media to work properly. What can be done to deal with this problem?

- Well that is serious problem and I have heard that from other media outlets how difficult access to the public information is, simply because the system itself is not efficient or designed for that. We in US have the freedom of information act which is mechanism not for just media outlets but any citizen can use to obtain public information. And we take it very seriously because we consider that citizen right to have access to information particularly about the land that belongs to everyone or belongs to the state should be transparent and are available.

So certainly, about the media, if you want to have a robust media that is performing its function of keeping people informed and providing that transparency, this kind of legislations are very important. It would be nice if u didn’t have to have freedom of information act to get access to the information but perhaps either developing something like that for Georgia, or enforcing it if you already have such a law is really important. I think if there is nothing to hide in a transaction, then none of the information should be unavailable and u shouldn’t go through 13 lawsuits to provide public with that. There is the responsibility of the government to be accountable to the citizens and that of course is important role of media plays to hold the government accountable to the people.

- To continue talking about Media situation - in September 2021, State Security Service files were leaked, which confirmed the mass and long-term illegal secret surveillance of journalists, diplomats, politicians, high-ranking clerics. These cases have not been investigated to date. The prosecutor's office recognized the journalists as victims, and the investigation did not go beyond that. Then again, the mass surveillance of opposition parties spread. Instead of an effective investigation, the government initiated changes to the law to allow lifelong wiretapping and other forms of surveillance of individuals without notification in connection with 77 crimes. The general director of the opposition TV Company "Mtavari TV" has been arrested. On July 5, 2021, none of the organizers have been arrested for mass violence against journalists. Do you think that the situation of media and human rights in Georgia in general has worsened and the government's accountability to its citizens, as well as to international partners, has disappeared if not, significantly reduced.

- Georgia had a very robust media scene. And I think that is reflection of the importance that the Georgian people put on how they get the access to the information and being well informed. We really appreciate in the world the role that media plays, sometimes to the risk their own safety to bring information to the public. We have seen narrowing of that media range for the last few years and we have certainly heard from others that it puts a great responsibility on regional outlets like yours and as well as national outlets to really be sure to be providing accurate, balanced reporting to the public.

This is very polarized society. Media has become polarized as well. I have seen that the most unbiased, balanced reporting is coming from the regional outlets, where there is more direct connection to the local communities, which is so important.

We had concerns about the surveillance law, since the existing law already provided many of the protections needed for criminal cases. And expanding it, in our view, was not necessary and is actually a step back in terms of protection that people need against that kind of surveillance, unauthorized surveillance.

That is not kind of country Georgians want to live in. many Georgians remember what it was like to live under the regime in soviet times, where that sort of things happened all the time. And you aware of people listening to your conversations or tracking you that way just as a normal citizen.

I think that most Georgians probably feel that it was very dangerous step backwards. 

So, at this time, when Georgia tries to become more European, to demonstrate to --European Union member states how much Europe and Georgia have in common, and I think they do have great deal in common, that is a step in the wrong direction.

Every Georgian political leadership be doing everything they can right now to ensure that these reforms that are needed to demonstrate Georgia’s commitment to democracy and freedom, whether its freedom of media or freedom of expression, should be first priority. This is so important right now.

- The European integration process of Georgia, in the regions, inside the country and outside, worries many. We know that the fulfillment of the 12 recommendations defined by the European Commission eight months ago is a condition for obtaining the status of a candidate country for the European Union. Only one recommendation has been fully implemented. Important recommendations such as deoligarchization, resolving political polarization, electing an independent candidate as public defender, providing a safe environment for journalists and protecting the human rights of vulnerable groups remain partially or completely unfulfilled. In this highly polarized environment, do you think it will be possible to reach consensus-based decisions?

- Well the US has long been a big supporter of Georgia’s European Union membership as well as its NATO membership. Because we do think that this is the natural path for a country that has been oriented on Europe for centuries. Shared values are there, the commitment to freedom and independence and to respect human rights, there are so much part of Georgian culture. I think in many ways Georgia is an example for many countries in terms of deep long respect towards the democracy and human rights.

These 12 priorities are wonderful opportunities for Georgia. It’s not just about ticking the box and accomplishing twelve things, it’s about broader principles that are at stake behind each of those twelve priorities. They idea that you are going to have a truly independent democratic institution, like the public defender or like your judiciary. That you are going to be able to have free and fair elections.

That’s what behind these 12 priorities and that’s what European union member states are going to be looking at probably in December of this year to see, does Georgia has the commitment to the same principles. Are we truly the family we think we are?

For Georgia this is a tremendous opportunity to bring the concrete benefits of being closer to the European Union. And that is funding for important projects such as better roads, better infrastructure, better internet, better schools, and better healthcare. Its improving energy efficiency, that power does not go off regularly. It’s all kind of concrete benefits that will directly improve lives of Georgian family and Georgian children. This is really incredible opportunity for Georgia.

US is confident that Georgia will get there. What we now need to see is, are Georgia’s’ political leaders strong enough to unify this country and to do the reforms that are necessary to demonstrate the commitment. To Georgia’s euro Atlantic future.

This is not something to do for EU or for NATO; this is something to do for Georgia. This is going to make Georgia stronger, more stable, and more prosperous. Better jobs for people, better education for their children. This is what these reforms are about. And if they also bring Georgia closer to the EU, that’s even better.

- We hope that these priorities and recommendations will be implemented.

- I’m sure.

- You mentioned Ilia Chavchavadze, and I would like to ask you about the attack on the Georgian philologist and founder of the "Republican Party", Levan Berdzenishvili in Kvareli, when he was trying to hold a lecture about Ilia Chavchavadze with young people. Violent pro-Russian groups prevented the lecture from being held in a closed space. In the last few years, especially after the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the activation of pro-Russian forces in our country is obvious. Not only do they attack people in the open and prevent them from enjoying their rights to peaceful assembly and freedom of expression, but they also attack people who hold different views. Mr. Berdzenishvili has a different opinion about the Georgievsky Treaty signed with Russia in 1783. The police, who witnessed the attack, did not react to the violation of the law. Government representatives did not condemn the incident either. Does this promote violence against people with different views? What should be the reaction of the responsible government?

- I think everybody was shocked by that attack against the respecting man who was presenting his view. We searched and he is very educated person. Especially someone who is speaking about ilia chavchavadze, who is such a Georgian statesman and defender of human rights, freedoms like that. This is not Georgia I have seen while traveling around the country and it’s not Georgians I have met. We have tremendous respect for education and for scholarship. They may not always agree on the positions but respect is there for an education.

Georgians know that this pro-Russian disinformation is going on for a long time. I agree with you that it is increased recently and became more aggressive. The purpose of this and I think Georgians know it, is to divide Georgians. It’s one of the main elements that made this country so polarized; this is constant barrage of disinformation. And this is pretty much organized by pro-Russian forces. Trying to confuse the public, so people won’t know what’s right and what’s wrong.

But Georgians know what’s right and I think they know that their culture is based on respect for freedom of expression, tolerance, which is something well known Georgia for, and those who are trying to push Georgia off that path through disinformation and attempts to confuse them, need to be pushed back.

At a time when Georgia has such an incredible opportunity, these is the time when those forces are going to be very strong and try to push Georgia away from its destiny, which in my view, is Europe. Georgia needs to be firm and clear about the direction that it has been heading for centuries.

Georgia’s cultures are based on these shared values- a freedom and independence, and a respect for human rights and also respect for each other. And I hope that Georgians will regain their balance in the face of this very aggressive attempt by pro-Russian forces.

 - The last question concerns migration, which is a very intense problem, especially in the regions of our country. According to the data of the National Statistics Service, more than 80 thousand citizens left Georgia in 2021, less than half returned to the country. The numbers for 2022 are not yet known, but the indicator is likely to be higher. Almost everyone is trying to leave the country. Mostly, young people are the ones who want to go to Europe and America in search of work and prospects. The people who talk to us name the economic situation, lack of prospects and injustice in the country as the main reason for migration. You often hold regional meetings. Do they talk to you about this issue? What measures can be taken in order to stop migration, to create proper conditions for the stay and development of young people in Georgia, especially in the regions. What is the US Embassy doing in this direction?

- We love to have Georgians come to US because, this enriches our country but we want Georgians to come back to their country. What I found was that Georgians have deep connection to their country; they want to be here in Georgia.

Right now Georgia needs its young people particularly and more than ever before, to continue these projects that you have been working on to build a strong democracy. I think that visiting Europe, US and bringing these experiences back, can help enrich Georgia as well.

We have some excellent exchange programs. In fact, I was visiting the regional court here and the judges have been to US to talk to American judges. We learn from them and they learn from us. The same with students. But young people need to come back and contribute to building this country, building economy, modernizing some of the technology.

I have traveled around the country and what I have seen is incredibly creative entrepreneurs, women who have started their small businesses and not only helping their family but whole community. That is where real future of Georgia is to keep people here obviously, there have to be incentives to stay. We have a broad range of programs from the United States program of agriculture, which works with farmers to help them improve the quality of production. We have some wonderful programs of USAID to help hazelnut farmers or blueberry and raspberry farmers.

So I think when people see there are opportunities to grow their businesses, to expand their businesses, to involve their families and communities and create great jobs, this is the way u get people who want to stay in Georgia and this way u give them the hope for the future to see that they can stay in Georgia and have a good life. And of course, starting with education, we have big educational programs. Giving young Georgians that vision of the future and how they can contribute to make their country strong, modern and prosperous and part of Europe. It’s not something you turn around overnight but the key is to provide people with hope and vision that, what a future in Georgia can be. And it can be a very rich and rewarding one.