The Holes in Sanctions Only Helping Russia Prolong this War - Interview with the US Ambassador

- Madam Ambassador, I would like to ask you about the resumption of direct flights between Georgia and Russia and Putin's order to cancel the visa regime for Georgian citizens after 23 years. The government of Georgia welcomed these actions. Why does Russia make such decisions now?

- I don’t want to speculate on why, but I can certainly agree that

now is not the time for any country to be moving closer to Russia, especially the country that Russia occupies 20% territory of. I think the warm welcome that was given by the government to the gesture by President Putin was surprising. This is after all of the broken promises, after all of the aggression that Georgia has suffered at the hands of Putin and the Kremlin and Russia.

It is surprising to welcome a normalization of relations like this – direct flights and the visa regime. Of course, governments try to help their people, but the 130 thousand mostly Russian-Georgian citizens that are living in Russia already had ways to get back and forth. They could go through Yerevan with very little trouble, they could go through Minsk with very little trouble. We already see the pressure, but also the incentives that Putin and Kremlin and giving to try to lure Georgia back.

Russia doesn’t have very many friends right now for a very good reason. They are brutally attacking civilians, children, and elderly people in Ukraine in an effort to recreate the Russian empire. This is an appalling grab for power and territory, and if any country can understand what is at stake for Ukraine in terms of preserving and protecting its cultural identity, as well as its sovereignty and territorial integrity, it’s Georgia.

Again, we think this is a dangerous move to try to normalize relations with the country that has never fulfilled its promises to Georgia, and it’s clear both from the statements of the embassy, but also from Washington that this is something we see with some concern.

- Is the opening of Georgia’s airspace for Russia helping the aggressor country and how well-founded are these suspicions that Georgia may be helping Russia to circumvent the sanctions imposed by the West? Here, we should mention the recent statement of the head of the Russian customs service that the economic blockade imposed by European countries on Russia is being broken on the Georgian-Russian border, at the Lars checkpoint.

- I would never trust anything that a Russian official says. We know that they are masters of propaganda and that the purpose of their propaganda is to divide Georgia, not only from within but also from its strategic partners – the United States, European Union, and the UK – those who believe in freedom and have been strong supporters of Georgia’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. It is clear that is what Russia is trying to chip away at and undermine.

We just had a visit from the US, UK, and EU sanctions coordinators, which was partly to thank the Georgian Government and authorities who are doing their best to monitor and control what’s going in and out of Georgia. Customs and border police have long partnerships with the United States, we have provided training, given equipment, and what we see is that they are doing their best and it’s an enormous task to try and control the flow of goods that are coming in and out of Georgia. In part because they have increased so much since the war started. And what we have seen is a very good effort at trying to implement and comply with the sanctions.

Financial sanctions in particular, I think the National Bank has done a very good job of tightening [procedures] and complying with those.

The other message that the sanctions coordinators came with was to say that this needs constant vigilance because Russia is always trying to find new ways to get these parts, in particular, the focus is primarily on the components that are ending up in weapons that Russia is using to attack Ukraine, to blow up apartment buildings, and to create such fear and destruction in Ukraine. So, it’s a very specific list now, but as Russia has to adapt and find new ways, they are looking for opportunities.

So, part of the message was - what more can we do together to help Georgia prevent Russia from trying to move things through Georgia? It’s not necessarily the government, it could be companies, that are either affiliated with Russia or Russia pays them a great deal, which makes it worth their trying to help Russia. It is an enormous task, and we understand that, and the reason it’s effective is that we are all working together.

If there are holes in the net that the sanctions are designed to provide, then it’s only helping Russia prolong this war.

Everything we are doing together, the West and everyone who is trying to stop this war as quickly as possible and end the destruction, is to cut off supplies to Russia. As long as Russia can get access to these parts, they are going to continue to bombard Ukraine; they are going to continue this war. That’s why sanctions are important, to stop this war as soon as possible.

We will have to see how much cargo actually comes on those direct flights.

I think the bigger concern with direct flights is that it provides a route for Russians to get to Europe. Europe has closed its airspace to Russians, and this is providing a back door into Europe. Again, the point is for Russians to understand that they are isolated because their government has chosen to start a war.

We have had relative peace and stability in this whole European region for 75 years until Russia again starts a war. They started a war here in 2008, invaded Ukraine in 2014, and now, again, a devastating attempt to eliminate Ukraine as a nation, simply for the greed of wanting to restore Russia’s empire. And I think many people fear that if we don’t stand together, strong and united, it won’t send a message to Putin that he can’t keep doing this, this has got to stop. So, by providing those direct flights to Tbilisi, which would then allow them to go to France or Germany, it makes Russian citizens think that everything is normal. It’s not normal, it’s their government that disrupted the peace and stability that we have all done so much to build over the last 75 years.

- In Moscow, they are already talking about the next steps - the railway through Abkhazia or the restoration of diplomatic relations. Why are these topics being activated and how realistic is it for Russia to succeed in these directions as well?

- I was glad to hear a number of government officials in the last day or two very specifically say that this was not going to happen, the railway was not going to happen, and the restoration of diplomatic relations was not going to happen – very clearly, very categorically. So, basically, the government is on record saying that this is not going to happen.

Why would Russia be doing this? again, I think this is part of the pressure that the Kremlin is putting on Georgia to disrupt things here, to create confusion, and to create fear, and unfortunately, it’s working. I mean you see the divisions within Georgia; those have been driven by this pro-Russian disinformation. And it’s not just the last year, it has been going on certainly in the three and a half years that I have been here, it’s just much more intensified now. And it touches on very emotional issues for Georgians.

How can any Georgian imagine normalizing relations with Russia when Russia still occupies 20% of your territory, prevents families from being united, or even people from working in their orchards, because of some artificial boundary line that is patrolled and enforced by pro-Russian forces?

This is the priority of Georgians that I’ve always heard since I’ve been here, for Russia to comply with its obligations under the ceasefire agreement, withdraw from the occupied territories, reverse its recognition [of independence of separatist states], so that Georgia can peacefully resolve disagreements with Abkhazia and South Ossetia. It’s not in Russia’s interests to have that happen, so we see time and time again, Russia trying to divide, separate, confuse, and create fear in the population here.

- The sanctioned family members of one of the highest officials of Russia - Minister of Foreign Affairs Sergey Lavrov entered Georgia in May. Chairman of the ruling party, Irakli Kobakhidze, said that Georgia does not join the sanctions against Russia, including personal sanctions. In addition, he said that sanctioning a family member is a gross violation of human rights standards. What does this approach of the Georgian authorities in relation to the Western sanctions indicate? And as a lawyer, do you think that human rights are violated when family members of people like Lavrov are sanctioned?

- As far as I know, there has never been a ruling to say that this is a gross violation of human rights, so perhaps this is his own opinion, but I know that he has also said that if anyone has entered the occupied territories illegally than they are not welcome in Georgia. We know that Foreign Minister Lavrov has done that and I don’t know if his daughter and son-in-law have done that either, but it’s also clear that they are very close to President Putin and Kremlin decision-makers that were involved in launching this war against Ukraine. I think the Georgian people have made it very clear that while Russia is occupying 20% of their country, this high-level leadership, the Kremlin elite, is not welcome here. There have been several cases while I am here, that Georgian have made it very clear that they are not comfortable with this and they are not welcome here. And there is a good reason. These are part of the elite in the Kremlin that is keeping your country occupied, so I don’t think that it’s surprising that people would object to that.

- Speaking about the restoration of direct flights with Russia and the cancellation of visa restrictions for Georgian citizens, the chairman of Georgian Dream said - if he were the US ambassador, he would take care of the direct flights between America and Georgia, and establish a visa-free regime for Georgian citizens. According to him, only 37% of Georgian citizens’ visa applications are satisfied by the US. What is your response to this criticism of the ruling party? Is the US considering starting direct flights with Georgia and simplifying visa regulations?

- It’s a good suggestion. We have certainly been working on establishing direct flights for many years. There was some good progress before Covid, and the commercial aspect of that is being discussed again. It has to make business sense to do that; the United States is a long way from Georgia, so having a commercial airline commit the resources to doing that is something we have been advocating for and we appreciate the support from the Georgian Government to help us with that, but in the end, it is going to be a business decision of the airline to do that. We just had a great visit from the governor of the state of Georgia and his delegation last week. They were very positive and excited about the opportunities here in Georgia, for doing more together, so excited that their minister of education is coming back to look at working with the Georgian ministry, and also the minister of economy in the state of Georgia wants to come back and look at opportunities. So there is a lot of interest from American officials, as well as American businesses to see what we can do as partners here, and of course, the support of the government at a national, regional, and municipal level here in Georgia is always very important for that.

We welcome thousands of Georgians to the United States every year, as tourists, students, business people…all across the sectors. We are delighted that so many Georgians want to come. In fact, we have seen a significant increase in the number of Georgian who want to come to the United States. We can support those who want to come legally and who fill out the applications; I know it’s quite a long process, and it’s not as easy as I would like. We have also seen an increase in the number of Georgians who are trying to come to the United States illegally. That’s a problem that we have been trying to address working with the Georgian government.

- Do you have any data on that?

- I don’t know off the top of my head, but there has been a noticeable increase, particularly attempts of entry across the Mexican border, which is very, very dangerous, and I would not encourage anybody to do that. Not only is it dangerous and expensive, but if you are caught, you will never be able to come to the United States again.

That’s it. I know it’s a long process to apply legally, and we can’t let all the Georgian who want to come in, come, but it’s important to follow the legal steps that are involved. So, again, we welcome thousands of Georgian every year in all different capacities, because we love Georgians, we want more Georgians in America, and we want more Americans to come to Georgia.

- The working environment of independent media in Georgia is getting worse and the pressure is increasing. Watchdog media is disappearing in the regions. What vision and plans does the embassy have to really help the media in this situation?

- I am sorry to hear about these circumstances, because freedom of media, and robust independent media is a vital part of a healthy democracy. I agree with you that the space for independent media in Georgia seems to be narrowing over time and that is certainly not in the interest of Georgian citizens.

The embassy has tried over the years to provide training, equipment, and support, especially for regional outlets because we have seen that some of the best reporting in Georgia, and in many other countries, is in the regions.

Regional outlets need to be directly connected with the community, they need to report on what matters to the people in their community, and I think that is a very direct connection that helps people understand why robust free media is important. If that is politicized, and I have seen that media in Georgia has become very politicized, in my country as well, it really is a disservice to the whole society, but it’s not uncommon.

What we have tried to do is support not only through training and equipment but also through our support of free media, through our efforts to help people understand why it’s so important, and sometimes to help government understand that critical media is also how you find out how to do a better job as a government. It’s a way for the public to hold the government accountable. It’s not, it should be criticism that is just meant to target the government, it is supposed to be criticism that makes the government do a better job for the citizens they represent. I’m not sure that is always well understood here and in many other countries, not just in Georgia. So we will continue to do what we can to support robust, independent media in Georgia, with a special focus on the regions because we do think that some of the best journalism is happening here.

- Parliamentary elections will be held in Georgia in 2024. Civil society and media have the most important role during the elections, which includes not only the election day but the entire pre-election period. We see how the authorities are trying to limit, discredit and intimidate media and civil society critical of them. The recent attacks on Misha Mshvildadze, founder of Formula TV, arrest of human rights defenders and civil activists for standing in front of the parliament with blank paper at a peaceful demonstration, calling them agents or cascade of defamation lawsuits against journalists for which the court fines the opposition TV channels - all these shows how difficult the situation is. How do you see the state of the media and civil society at this stage and the expected development of events in the pre-election period?

- As we discussed, robust independent media is vitally important to a democracy, as is a civil society. Civil society covers many different aspects, it can be NGOs working on climate change, rights for the disabled, or watchdog agencies that are there to be the voice of the people. Both civil society and the media are the voice of the citizens in trying to hold the government accountable and help the government do a better job by providing that feedback and that information about what the public’s priorities are. A government can look at that and say thank you for that information and use it to do a better job, or they can view that just as criticism and become defensive. Of course, that is disappointing. In the long run, every government has to be responsive to the priorities of the public.

So, as the election approaches, I would say, if you have a good track record as a government, if you have been addressing citizens’ concerns, you don’t have to be worried about what the media and civil society say. You should still be listening to them, but you don’t have to take it as criticism, because the voters know that you are doing your job and addressing their priorities.

It is also important that media plays a responsible role and understands the role of accurate, balanced reporting, and in this polarized environment that is sometimes difficult. I think it’s unfortunate that some of the national stations, in some cases, have lots that balance. You can understand why, but it is not serving the public well that there is no place, except I would say in some of the regional and smaller outlets, that Georgians can go to find balanced, accurate, across-the-board reporting.

Civil society, which is a very rich array of NGOs who, again, are trying to provide useful information and feedback, that makes the government more responsive to the public. Shutting these voices down is a sign of weakness. If you have a good story to tell, as I said, you don’t have to fear civil society and the media. I think this government has done some very good things for Georgia, the economy is doing well, and there are other initiatives, which I think have been trying to address the public’s priorities. The focus should be explaining to the public what the accomplishments are, and that will tell a good story. I think it has become so polarized now that it’s going to be hard for people to hear, both the criticism and more positive stories.

To me, it was a very good sign that the president pardoned Mr. Gvaramia because that has become such a contributor to this polarization. It was driving people apart, and as she made clear, in granting the pardon, the purpose of it was to reduce polarization. Because he was the head of the largest independent opposition media, people were concerned that it had a chilling effect on other outlets and journalists in general, in an already difficult climate.

So, I commend the president on taking what has been an important step toward reducing polarization.

- So, do you share the opinion that this will reduce polarization?

- I hope. You notice that the people who are talking the most about violence and instability are also the people creating violence and instability. The very ones who are talking about hate speech are the ones using the hate speech and promoting it, so this is what I mean by pro-Russian disinformation campaign by pro-Russian forces that are trying to divide this society and weaken this society through confusion and fear. Many of these lies and rumors that are put out in society to create deeper polarization and make people fear or hate each other are based on nothing but rumors and completely made-up stories. When people throw around opinions without having the courage to substantiate them with any kind of fact, or any kind of substance, just throw it out there as an accusation. I think that’s cowardly. It also creates the kind of confusion that is exactly what this country doesn’t need. The only one that benefits from that is Russia.

This is the time, as we have said so many times before, as so many have said, for Georgia to come together and stand united and strong, on two fronts, one, the fact that the Kremlin has started this war, just as they did in 2008, and also because you have this incredible opportunity with the European Union candidate status. If anything should be bringing this country together, it’s that important next step on your path to integration into Europe – the Georgian people’s clear choice.

- How would you evaluate the implementation of the 12 priorities defined by the European Union and in which direction do you see the biggest challenge?

- European Commission’s oral report last week made it clear that Georgia has fulfilled three of the twelve, so there has been progress made in this process. There is still time for the remaining recommendations if the government and those stakeholders are able to work together. The commission has also made it very clear that the process is as important as the outcome, so it needs to be an inclusive process.

The one-party effort in fulfilling the recommendations is already not fulfilling these recommendations because it needs to be inclusive. That means civil society needs to be involved, and relevant NGOs and stakeholders need to be consulted.

There have been some very good proposals put forth by civil society and the media on some of the recommendations. As far as I know, none of them have been incorporated into the plans, and that’s really too bad.

And that’s what the European Commission is looking for, can Georgia come together, and work on this important next step together, as a united society with different views, but reaching the kind of consensus and compromise that is so important to being part of a consensus organization like the European Union or NATO. Both of these organizations are strong because members reach compromises that everybody can support. This is a difficult process, but it is the key to the strength of the European Union and NATO, and that’s why these organizations are very careful about making sure that new members can do that also, can reach compromises, and agree on a consensus position.

We are not seeing that here in Georgia. This process has not in any way shown that Georgian stakeholders and government can work together and reach a compromise, reach consensus. That to me is what’s missing in fulfilling the remaining priorities. Perhaps that is why the European Union emphasizes the basic importance of de-polarization, which is one of the recommendations. It’s extremely difficult, but each step has to be recognized and embraced as a step towards reducing polarization, instead of being criticized.

- Soon, your term as US Ambassador to Georgia will expire. What do you think will be the main challenges that the new ambassador to Georgia will face? It should be noted that the chairman of the ruling party accused you of supporting and even financing polarization in Georgia. He expressed hope that the new ambassador “will act differently”.

- Since I spent a lot of my three-and-a-half years here trying to facilitate and bring the political parties together. I feel I have contributed to trying to de-polarize society here. We saw the parties come together on the March 8 agreement in 2020, which was very positive in terms of electoral reforms, and that was done with the facilitation and support of the United States and the European Union, as well as Germany. I also spent six months trying to help political parties, including Georgian Dream, at their request. Georgian Dream asked the United States and the European Union to help bring the parties together after the 2020 parliamentary elections, and help them negotiate a solution, which they did, in the form of the Charles Michel agreement of April 19, which is a very good roadmap; it’s the same reforms as in the association agreement with the EU, it’s the same reforms that are now in the form of twelve recommendations. The roadmap is quite clear for the way forward for Georgia, and this is something that the Georgian Dream was very much involved in creating.

My advice to the next ambassador would be to travel and visit the many regions of Georgia as soon as she can. Of course, Tbilisi is very important, there is always a lot going on there, but the real heart and soul of this country is in the regions, and you feel the diversity, you feel the richness, the complexity of Georgia’s history when you have the chance to visit these different regions, as well as getting the chance to meet so many wonderful, kind, warm Georgians, incredibly generous, not just in their hospitality but in friendship. That is such a strong bond. We have done so much together over the past 30 years to improve the lives of families, communities, regions, and really this whole country, as Georgians work to make this country more prosperous, more stable and secure, and ultimately a strong and functioning democracy.

Those are the reasons that the United States is here in Georgia, that’s why we have been here for 30 years. Everything we do here, we do with the partnership with the government at different levels, national, regional, local, with NGOs and civil society, all to help Georgia become more secure; working with the Georgian defense forces, the coastguard, the border police, customs; helping Georgia’s economy grow and diversify; reducing Georgia’s dependence on Russia, so Russia can’t use economic reasons as leverage, holding Georgia hostage, as they have in 2019 and 2006, and many times before that; and fundamentally helping Georgia build independent, democratic institutions. We have seen in America and other democracies, the most important part of a strong democracy, the thing that gives democracy the most stability and security is strong, independent institutions. That’s why we have put such an emphasis on that in the past, and we will continue to do so in the future.

Eteri Pangani | Editor of Georgian News

The previous interview with the US Ambassador

That Is Not Kind of Country Georgians Want to Live In - Interview With the US Ambassador